Considering a new rig

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29 Apr 2010 14:20 #5025 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
pacobedejo wrote:

Wingless92 wrote:

Why would you get a dual core when you can get a quad core for $99 on newegg?

$65 for dual core 3.0Ghz 65W
$99 for quad core 2.8Ghz 95W

The quad core is slower, won't overclock as well, has less L2 cache/core, won't be utilized by most games, will run hotter, and costs 52% more without factoring in the likely need for an aftermarket cooler due to more cores in close proximity. :huh:

Wingless92 wrote:

And for the discussion, DDR3 on AMD's/1156's is different then DDR3 on i7's.

How so? Are you saying it performs worse than DDR2 on an AMD or that if Newegg finds out you're plugging it into an AMD chipset, they raise the price? :blink:



Ah, didn't realize that the dual core was that much cheaper.

Memeory on an i7 is Triple channel unline on AMD/1156.

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29 Apr 2010 14:28 - 29 Apr 2010 14:35 #5026 by Oh4sh0
Replied by Oh4sh0 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
technobear wrote:

@ Paco

Im not going to argue with you.
And i could say the same to you.
Prove that a dual core gives better FPS than a quad.

But i was mostly agreeing with you.

And yes, dont worry about processor speed between a 2 core 3ghz and a 3/4 core 2.8ghz.. that 2.8 could clock up very easy. even for someone whos not keen on OC.


You can look at virtually any benchmark and see this. Although the tide is starting to turn (As more games become written for QC support). A similar priced and specc'd dual core will outperform a quad in most games. Not all. Most games are threaded such that they can take advantage of a max of 2 cores.

Quads are clocked at lower frequencies than duals because they have more cores which use more power and generate more heat. An example would be an E8400 (3.0x2) versus a Q8400 (2.66x4). So many more games are going to be able to make use of the e8400's combined 6ghz of processing power, versus just 5.32ghz for the Q8400.

One other thing to note - if you're an overclocker, Duals will again offer you a larger performance advantage. A dual core will overclock considerably further and be more stable (due to less heat and less power draw) than a quad core. You're also less limited to the chance that 1 core would limit your OC by being a poor clocker. For games and apps that only utilize 2 cores, the performance gap would further widen.

You can see the effect here with the stock clocked cpu comparo - www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/56?vs=89
You can easily tell which apps and games utilize 2 cores or more than 2 cores.

Supreme Commander is really the only game I've personally seen make a big difference / advantage of having a quad core. Supposedly here are a few more, but I haven't verified it with comparison benches on any.

Alan Wake
Bioshock (Unreal Engine 3)
Call Of Duty 4
Company of Heroes
DiRT
Flight Simulator X -
Lost Planet
MOH: Airborn (Unreal Engine 3)
Supreme Commander
The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
World in Conflict
Unreal Tournament 3 (Unreal Engine 3)
Last edit: 29 Apr 2010 14:35 by Oh4sh0.

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29 Apr 2010 14:43 - 29 Apr 2010 14:46 #5028 by Oh4sh0
Replied by Oh4sh0 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
If I was shopping AMD procs, and planned on OCing, I'd probably grab an AMD BE proc. Unlocked multi = much higher OC. Potential to unlock more cores = win.
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103846 But that might be out of your price range, and if you're not going to OC or tinker with cores, it's not going to justify the higher price.
Last edit: 29 Apr 2010 14:46 by Oh4sh0.

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29 Apr 2010 14:48 #5029 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Intel > AMD

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29 Apr 2010 16:46 - 29 Apr 2010 16:50 #5045 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Wingless92 wrote:

Intel > AMD


Yes, we're all aware that $168 > $65. In kind, $1,000 systems > $500 systems. Are you going to organize a fundraiser car wash for Leon's build or are you going to make useful suggestions which fit within a $500 budget?

The Intel E8400 www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?...&name=Core%202%20Duo is still $168 and is the lowest priced Intel CPU I could personally recommend for a gaming build. The next highest is the i5-650 at $185. Both are well beyond the scope of a $500 discussion.
Last edit: 29 Apr 2010 16:50 by pacobedejo.

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29 Apr 2010 16:48 #5046 by garfi3ld
Replied by garfi3ld on topic Re:Considering a new rig
pacobedejo wrote:

Wingless92 wrote:

Intel > AMD

Are you going to organize a fundraiser car wash for Leon's build or are you going to make useful suggestions which fit within a $500 budget?


haha

Wes

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30 Apr 2010 13:48 #5127 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Leon, if you or anyone you know are anywhere near a Fry's Electronics store...

slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2002144

For $139.99 + tax, you can get a Quad Core AMD 3.0Ghz plus a DDR3 Motherboard. There's a $10 MIR, but I never count on those.

These are the individual items of that bundle at Newegg:
$92.98 MSI 790X-G45 AM3 AMD 790X ATX AMD Motherboard
www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130249

$150.99 AMD Phenom II X4 945 Deneb 3.0GHz
www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=n82e16819103675

You would most likely need to add an aftermarket HSF like www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185125 for $23.99. I have the predecessor to this HSF running on my E8400 & it keeps temps at 23°C-idle/36°C-load with a 20% overclock. It should do a $24 job on an AMD Quad Core.

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30 Apr 2010 13:53 #5129 by technobear
Replied by technobear on topic Re:Considering a new rig
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185125

I cannot recommend this cooler.

Cooling was sufficient at best.

and after a year it seized up completely and became effectively a passive cooler.

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30 Apr 2010 16:36 #5141 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Yea, cause my old Q6600 really broke the bank. Intel makes cheap stuff just like AMD.

Why am I even posting this? Agghhhhhh, back to WoW I go, lol.

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30 Apr 2010 16:47 #5144 by jj_Sky5000
Replied by jj_Sky5000 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Awe funny stuff. Wingless and Paco have one thing in common through. They both play WOW. Gamers are all the same on the inside!!!

I have always built good gaming machines using all my resources such as Ebay & Ebay. I have built three pretty decent machines around the 400-800 mark. I have all but a few bad experences with Ebay before you even ask. I got my 9800 both new from ebay and save money and tehn turn them in to get 280 on teh step up program. I also save about $200 on my I7-965 and it works awesome. Just keep that as a option

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30 Apr 2010 19:55 #5175 by Oh4sh0
Replied by Oh4sh0 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
The q6600 was, when relevant $200+ new.

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01 May 2010 04:17 #5197 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Wingless92 wrote:

Yea, cause my old Q6600 really broke the bank.

Your bank isn't part of this discussion. As Oh4sh0 stated, the Q6600 was never a cheap CPU. In fact, it still costs $160 or more. You're speaking well beyond the scope of a $500 build...again. You seem wholly incapable of understanding budgetary constraints. Maybe you have a future in politics? :lol:

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02 May 2010 04:32 #5236 by Twodavez
Replied by Twodavez on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Have you ever considered this site in figuring out what to go with? I know it helped me when there were tons of people telling me what to do. I'm not sure if these are the best options out there, but i'm sure it's another resource...
pcper.com/hwlb.php?guide1=y&guide3=y&guide4=y

“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” - Mark Twain

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02 May 2010 13:32 #5251 by technobear
Replied by technobear on topic Re:Considering a new rig
wow good link twodaves
they recommend an amd for their budget system ( right at 500)

which makes sense because unlike intel AMD doesnt change sockets with every revision. Its even rumored that with the new 6 and 10 core processors theyll be on am3 boards. So if he goes that route and comes into some money later theoretically he could just bump up to a faster AMD..

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02 May 2010 14:20 #5253 by garfi3ld
Replied by garfi3ld on topic Re:Considering a new rig
the 6 core cpus are already out and on AM3 boards.

The only thing on that build I would reconsider is the video card. They spent more money on the PSU and hard drive and cut it out of the video card. He is looking to build a gaming only rig so the card will come in handy for him.

Of course that build is 500 but doesnt include a case or DVD drive and also has less ram.

Wes

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02 May 2010 15:03 #5255 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
The 980X's are socket 1366, so all you need to do is an BIOS update for many of the boards. Was thinking about it. But, I would rather have a bad azz GPU then a CPU. Plus with my i7, I never see more than 30% usage.

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02 May 2010 16:37 #5261 by Twodavez
Replied by Twodavez on topic Re:Considering a new rig
technobear wrote:

wow good link twodaves
they recommend an amd for their budget system ( right at 500)

which makes sense because unlike intel AMD doesnt change sockets with every revision. Its even rumored that with the new 6 and 10 core processors theyll be on am3 boards. So if he goes that route and comes into some money later theoretically he could just bump up to a faster AMD..


It actually game from Nacelle when i was buidling my rig a little over a year ago, so thanks to him. The cool thing is the Motherboard for the dream system is the motherboard i bought a year ago, so i guess i'm still in the loop as far as hardware which is refreshing in todays advancements in technology!

“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” - Mark Twain

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02 May 2010 21:20 #5271 by Leonresevil2
I purchased the GT 240 I posted about April 30th. So I'll have to reexamine things probably. Or can I do Nvidia and AMD? Are the boards compatible and all that? The link to the card is on the forums, and I can put it up on here if needed. Basically I am wanting to get the most out of this card, but I would like to go Nvidia/AMD if that works.

"You should the forums"
Better words never said.

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02 May 2010 22:05 #5273 by Nacelle
Replied by Nacelle on topic Re:Considering a new rig
I'm not sure what you mean there. Are you talking about nvidia with an amd motherboard or with an amd graphics card? Answer would be yes for mobo, no for gfx card.

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02 May 2010 23:22 #5274 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Leonresevil2 wrote:

but I would like to go Nvidia/AMD if that works.


You shouldn't have any problem running an nVidia card with an AMD socketed motherboard & AMD CPU.

Just remember as you purchase the remainder of your items:
-CPU speed is more important than quantity of cores, for *most* games.

-2GB RAM may not be enough to avoid a swap file being written to your HDD during some games, but will likely be enough if you wish to save a few dollars.

-DDR2 -vs- DDR3 isn't a big deal, but DDR3 is slightly faster while costing just a few dollars (a sandwich) more.

-You won't need more than a 500 Watt power supply. Don't let anyone talk you into higher unless you find a great deal.

-Samsung Spinpoint F3 hard drives are the best speed/value followed very closely by Western Digital Blacks. From those, I would buy whatever meets your cost/size ratio desires. Hard drives offer almost no 'gaming performance' & shouldn't be a large concern for you.

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02 May 2010 23:30 #5275 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
HDD do offer a performance gain. My Velociraptor say's hello. Now true a better CPU and GPU will offer a HUGE increase over a HDD but the better the drive the better the performance.

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03 May 2010 00:59 #5280 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Wingless92 wrote:

HDD do offer a performance gain. My Velociraptor say's hello. Now true a better CPU and GPU will offer a HUGE increase over a HDD but the better the drive the better the performance.

[angrynewguy]

I know I'm new to this board, but your talking points have just simply been way the off kilter in almost every post.

My assertion was:

Hard drives offer almost no 'gaming performance' & shouldn't be a large concern for you.

Please note that both 'gaming' and 'performance' were specifically tied together in that sentence. Despite my efforts, you still managed to not read them together. Or...were you just looking for yet another opportunity to flaunt your larger gaming budget?

HDD does not give frames per second...aka 'gaming performance'. There's just simply no way to refute that statement unless you wish to consider an unlikely and moronic build in which your games use a swap file due to insufficient RAM.

BTW...we all get it, you spend an assload of money on stuff you barely understand & have difficulty fathoming a $500 budget and/or employing basic reading comprehension. The rest of us are trying to help Leon understand the tough-to-dive-into world of budget-PCs.

[/angrynewguy]

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03 May 2010 01:15 #5282 by Nacelle
Replied by Nacelle on topic Re:Considering a new rig
I've built plenty of budget computers. I rarely ask for forum help in choosing parts, just for this reason. Either he's yankin' your chain or he's part of the congressional finance committee. Never afraid to overspend other people's money.

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03 May 2010 01:34 #5284 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Yea, cause I blew a poop ton of cash on my PC. Most of the stuff that I got on the cheap.

I think at this point we both just need to step away.

I made valid point of what I would do. SSD, AMD quad and a 5770. That's me. You can find the SSD's on the cheap, Quad is a bill and the 5770 is 150. That's me, that's what I would do.

Back to my 10k machine I go.

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03 May 2010 12:50 - 03 May 2010 13:33 #5310 by Oh4sh0
Replied by Oh4sh0 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
ssds will help considerably in load times for damn near anything. actual fps(es), however, nop.

You've gotta consider the OP still needs an optical drive, case, psu, motherboard, and ram.. $100 for quad + $150 for video .. cheapest 80gb ssd is ~$215. Right there's the op's budget already.

I'd take the following route for that:
AMD X2 555 BE 99

AsRock (cheap Asus) xfire mobo
68

2gb G.Skill ddr3 (geez ram's gotten expensive!) 68

LiteOn DVD Burner 31

FSP 400W PSU 50

Random case 50

Seagate 250gb HDD 45

ATI HIS 5670 Video Card 94

Would put your total at $505 shipped.
Last edit: 03 May 2010 13:33 by Oh4sh0.

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03 May 2010 12:56 #5312 by Dreyvas
Replied by Dreyvas on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Oh4sh0 wrote:

ssds will help considerably in load times for damn near anything. actual fps(es), however, nop.

You've gotta consider the OP still needs an optical drive, case, psu, motherboard, and ram.. $100 for quad + $150 for video .. cheapest 80gb ssd is ~$215. Right there's the op's budget already.


This. You hit the nail on the head.

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03 May 2010 14:33 #5315 by Wingless92
Replied by Wingless92 on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Agreed 4Sho, I wouldn't do an SSD on a $500 rig. It would be a great upgrade down the road. You can find em cheaper than $200 but the size is going to be around 30gb. Regardless, if you add the cost of an OS in the picture then it gets real dicey.


So did Leon get all the parts ordered yet? I know that he was looking at the the 240. Didn't know if he started to buy stuff yet or not.

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03 May 2010 14:45 #5317 by pacobedejo
Replied by pacobedejo on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Wingless92 wrote:

So did Leon get all the parts ordered yet? I know that he was looking at the the 240. Didn't know if he started to buy stuff yet or not.

Too busy preaching the huge gaming benefits of SSDs & Quad-Cores, in a budget system thread, to read the OP's posts? :blink:

Leonresevil2 wrote: Post #5271

I purchased the GT 240 I posted about April 30th. So I'll have to reexamine things probably.

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03 May 2010 15:05 #5318 by Lersar
Replied by Lersar on topic Re:Considering a new rig
Pacopedejo, regardless of your feelings towards Wingless92's opinions, he is presenting his civilly. OP requested everyone's thoughts on the topic, he is giving his. I am not arguing for or against his take on the matter, only that there's no need to be so vulgar in your responses.

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03 May 2010 15:18 - 03 May 2010 15:21 #5321 by MurDerFace
Replied by MurDerFace on topic Re:Considering a new rig
almost feel like im in a game on the net like wow just waiting for childish comments to flow freely about how someone sux at everything compaired to them....all we need now is the "ur mom" jokes and we will be right back in the second grade.....good job new KID

Werd up home slice
Last edit: 03 May 2010 15:21 by MurDerFace.

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